Pull Quotes Podcast S4Ep6 SPEAKERS Emiliy Morantz, Jemma, Julia Duchesne, Emma Jones Emma Jones 00:00 Hello and welcome to the final episode of Season Four of pull quotes, the podcast at the [ ] Review of journalism. Each week my co-host Joe Fish and I, Emma Jones, do a deep dive into the stories and people encountered by journalists at the review. On this week's episode, we're celebrating the launch of the reviews annual print magazine in bookstores and available to be delivered to your door this month. The review is an annual tradition at the Ryerson School of Journalism, a rite of passage open to final year undergrad and graduate students. The first edition of the magazine came out in 1984, and along the way has added on a digital collection as well as this podcast. But for everything the review has seen and done, it has never been produced by a team that is working completely remote from each other. On this week's episode, we're talking about putting together a physical magazine during a global pandemic. You'll hear from our managing editor of print Julie Duchesne, our print production editor, Jemma Dooreleyers, and the senior editor of print and online Emily Morantz. Make sure you also check out our show notes for more information on how our digital research and business teams rose to the occasion during this unprecedented era. [music] Alright, so where are you guys all calling in from? Jemma 01:22 I am calling in from Kingston, Ontario under my covers. Emma 01:27 And what about you Julia? Julia Duchesne 01:28 I am calling in from Whitehorse, Yukon, also under my covers. Emma and Emily? Emiliy Morantz 01:34 I am calling in from downtown Toronto. And I'm also under my covers. Emma Jones 01:40 So you guys are spread out across Canada. And that wasn't always the case, correct? Like Julia, you were in Ontario for a little bit of time here as well. Julia Duchesne 01:49 Yeah, I was sort of splitting my time this year between Toronto and Whitehorse, Yukon and Atlin BC, which is right south of south of Whitehorse. Emma Jones 01:59 Did you all know each other well before coming together as a team? Or is it kind of like just getting to know each other? Jemma 02:06 Um, well, I am an undergrad. So, I had never spoken to Julia or Emily before this. Vanessa, the other part of our print team, is also an undergrad but I had only like heard of her. So I didn't really know anybody. Julia Duchesne 02:23 Yeah. And yeah, Emily and I knew each other from being in the same Master's class. But yeah, we had never met Jemma or Vanessa before and still have not met in the flesh. I feel like I know everybody on this team so well, and yet I've only met, I've only met half of the team. Emma Jones 02:42 When you guys first started, some of you know each other, some of you don't. Was team bonding a concern? Or was that not maybe as important as if you were working in person? Julia Duchesne 02:51 it was definitely something that was on my mind. I wanted to make sure that that, you know, we knew this is going to be like a big year, a challenging year in lots of ways. And I wanted to make sure that we all, you know, felt that we knew each other a little bit. So at this point in the pandemic, I feel like at least we're used to meeting people virtually. We had regular weekly meetings to start with and then more frequently. So yeah, I definitely wanted to make sure that we all felt like we, you know, we were like in person friends, like friends IRL, not just not just screen friends. Emma Jones 03:32 And so how do you approach that virtually? Jemma 03:34 I think we're all just generally social people. So it kind of all felt natural to open up and talk. Like, we were friends. Emiliy Morantz 03:44 Yeah, like Jemma, I'm surprised by how much I feel like I know you. Julia Duchesne 03:47 But I definitely feel like we're friends in real life now. Not just, not just through the screen, Emma Jones 03:52 even if you might have a little bit of trouble recognizing them if you pass them on the street? Julia 03:57 Exactly. Emiliy Morantz 03:57 I'm just realizing now as we talk that I have no idea how tall Jemma or Vanessa are. Jemma 04:04 I am five two. Emma Jones 04:08 And so when you're communicating and you're getting to know each other, so we don't really know each other's communication cues yet and how we talk to each other. Did you ever find it difficult, like giving feedback or even getting it? Were there any times when you were concerned that there might be a misunderstanding? Julia Duchesne 04:21 I think we tried to be pretty proactive about that. Yeah, we had weekly meetings and then we had also other sort of, like, we were like regularly checking in on Slack. And I was also like checking in with everyone one on one just to make sure that things were going smoothly because, you're right, things can really fall through the cracks on the internet. It can be hard to read people or to see you know, all you can see is like a little square of someone's life so you can't actually always tell how they're doing and what Emma Jones 04:50 What sort of expectations did you all set up for yourselves, like daily check ins or did you have frequent phone calls? Jemma 04:57 I just I wanted to make sure that I was reaching people at like, the correct time of day, because I'm definitely a night worker. I'll like work until really early in the morning. And so I really wanted to make sure that I wasn't reaching out to people at like, two in the morning, nine at night, because that is not fair. So I really had to be proactive about being like, Okay, what are business hours? And am I contacting people within business hours, because we really felt the blur between work and home, because we're all just working in the same room. So I really wanted to make sure that I was being considerate of everybody's boundaries that they had set for themselves. Emma Jones 05:38 So were you upfront about your boundaries, like, I'm not going to be on the computer after 5pm or something like that? Emiliy Morantz 05:45 Well, something that I did like maybe a month into the term that I am very happy I did was I set like a sleep timer on my slack notifications. So I wouldn't get any after 9pm. Jemma 05:57 I got really parinoid, like, I tried to set asleep thing for my slack. But I would get really paranoid and be like, what if someone is trying to reach me and it's an emergency? and I haven't been answering? And so yeah, I had a hard time setting boundaries. Emma Jones 06:14 So how did that feel as the semester went on? Did you feel you started to get burnt out? Or did you find yourself setting more boundaries as you went? Jemma 06:24 I would try and set boundaries, and I would get burnt out. But my job was like it really fit my personality, because I really enjoy talking to different people all the time. And like making sure everybody's okay, so I would get burnt out. And it would be really difficult to kind of communicate that to people because I felt like my job was kind of, it wasn't as much work as the fact checking or editing and stuff. So I wanted to make sure that I was doing a good job, but also making sure that I was staying on top of my work. And so yeah, setting boundaries was important. But I did have a hard time with it. Because of my work style. Julia Duchesne 07:02 And also Jemma, like you're saying that your job isn't as much work but like Jemma was the print production editor. And so she had to keep track of literally where every story was at every moment. And so that's actually, that's actually quite a lot of work. And it's like really constant work that doesn't let up. So don't underestimate that. Don't undersell yourself, like you did a great job of staying on top of things. And it's definitely one of the hardest jobs to one of the hardest jobs to step back from because it requires like constantly checking in with the process. Emma Jones 07:28 Julia and Emily, how did you guys manage burnout though all this when the lines are kind of blurred and work is also home? Julia Duchesne 07:35 I think I managed not to burn out luckily. But I sort of knew I sort of knew going in that it was going to be a big job. And then when I realized it was going to be you know big more than I expected I sort of like I sort of managed burnout by de prioritizing some other things in my life. Which I knew that I could do because it was temporary, but I definitely had to put like towards the end or like starting in. Well, basically throughout the whole thing. I guess I just had to sort of accept that this is like the main part of my work life and that and I was lucky enough to be able to do that, like, you know, had good support network. Definitely, like one of the keys was also being honest. And Jemma mentioned this already, just checking in with people and seeing how you're actually doing. And I think that I tried to be honest with the print team about where I was at and how much capacity and emotional space I had and people reacted really well to that. Emma Jones 08:30 Did you find that honesty was hard when you were working virtually? Were you concerned that nuance was getting lost through text messages and things like that? Julia Duchesne 08:38 I was a bit sometimes. Sometimes I would say, hey, like I'm, you know, I'm up to my ears this week, like I am kind of swamped. I would worry that people would read it as maybe as me, like, you know, snapping or just being like, you know, I'm so exhausted. But I was sort of just trying to give like, a heads up. And I think it worked pretty well. But it was always a big concern. You never know how things are gonna come across on the screen or on text. Emma Jones 09:08 And Emily what did you think like because you're on two different teams, right? Emiliy Morantz 09:12 Yeah, so we had a small team this year, smaller than usual. And so some people had to sort of like cover more work than I think would normally happen in this course. And so part of the result of that was that they created a new position, which was a senior editor for both print and digital, which was me. And I don't know why I didn't realize this when I sort of applied for that job but it meant that I had double the meetings every week. And it was a lot of like switching gears. And the other thing that I didn't really account for was that pretty much at the exact time that my like printing work like editing the front of book and back of book stuff was sort of like winding down. That was when digital stuff started ramping up. And so I never really got a time in the term where I had like a, like a break, like I was sort of always in like priority mode for one team or the other, which is kind of interesting. Emma Jones 10:15 Oh, wow. Yeah. So you just shifted gears and kept going? Emiliy Morantz 10:17 Yeah, basically. So on one hand, it's kind of nice, because I got to like, think about things in a different way. I wasn't always focused on one type of product. But it was definitely kind of like whiplash. Julia Duchesne 10:32 And I was also just like, it was so incredible to have you on both teams, not in hindsight, but in future sight we, like, often the print and the onlines side of the magazines were like, pretty separate. And thank goodness Emily was there to be a link between the two of them and to sort of like vision, how the magazine could work across both. Emma Jones 10:54 And do you feel obviously, it's hard to tell because we haven't done it in person, but do you think that this process would have been easier in person? Jemma 11:02 I really think it would have been, because I was constantly asking people for things and being like, when is this going to be ready? When is this going to be ready? And I didn't know if my message was the thing that sent someone into a panic attack. I couldn't gauge if my message was going to be the thing that caused someone a lot of anxiety and worry. And so I really think it would have been so much easier to be in person and be like, hey, like, "How are you doing? just let me know when this thing is gonna be ready" and become more approachable, because I think it can sound so clinical on a text message and make it sound so much more urgent than it was. And so I, I really had a hard time trying to be empathetic, but also getting my point across. So, I really think it would have been way easier in person. Emiliy Morantz 11:52 Yeah, I definitely know what you mean about like, like messaging someone, and then if they don't respond to you, it's like, okay, is that person just like, taking some time for themselves? Or are they like, freaking out right now, because they forgot they needed to send this to me. And I'm like, sending them into a tailspin. And like, just that, it's that that silence that becomes possible and a slack message that wouldn't exist if you could just like walk up to someone in a room is like very anxiety inducing. Julia 12:22 Yeah, totally. Emma Jones 12:24 And that's really interesting that you guys were concerned that the messages were coming across as more urgent than it actually was. Julia Duchesne 12:30 Yeah, well, we were really aware that, you know, while we were trying to put out a magazine, and we wanted it to be amazing. There was also a global pandemic going on, people had millions of other things in their lives that they were dealing with, you know. Some of us got COVID, some of us had family members who got COVID. And we're also just dealing with like the regular stresses and pressures of our final years of our degrees. So we were trying to appreciate the real urgency that we had a magazine to get out, while not also making it just one more super stressful element of everybody's super stressful lives. Emma Jones 13:07 Did you find that there were any benefits to working completely virtually? Julia Duchesne 13:11 I was able to spend like, several months of the year in Northern BC. So that was definitely a benefit for me. None of us had to, you know, do the commute. I definitely found that there were some benefits. Jemma 13:29 And I feel the same way because my working schedule is so like, backwards from what it's like, I like to have my days and just kind of clean my house and do creative things, go for walks like while the sun's out. And then I like to work at night. And so I found it a lot more fitting to my work style to work virtually, because it didn't matter. Because if I were in the mag lab, I'd be like, Jemma, why are you there till like 4am? It was nice to just be in my apartment and nobody knows, like I could be secretive. Emma Jones 14:14 So it really gave you the flexibility to work on your own terms Jemma 14:17 Exactly. And in my own sweatpants. [all laugh] Emma Jones 14:25 Pull Quotes will return after a brief message from our sponsor. 14:37 This episode of pull quotes is sponsored by the Canadian Association of Black journalists. The CABJ advances the work of black journalists and media professionals in Canada. Their mission is to increase representation, diversify newsrooms, and increase the number of black media professionals in management positions in Canada through education and inspiration Emiliy Morantz 15:10 Yeah, there's also something about like, a two hour meeting in person is so much easier than a two hour meeting on Zoom. Like I find being on a Zoom call for longer than like an hour, just utterly exhausting. For whatever reason, Emma Jones 15:29 Wew you feeling that zoom fatigue? Emiliy Morantz 15:32 Yeah, exactly. Like, I don't know where that comes from. There's probably like studies that have been done on it. But yeah, it's like something frustrating about it. Julia Duchesne 15:40 I feel like, I feel like one of the neat things about this is that it's shown, I don't know, like, the the visuals are like seeing people's faces, or like being in person isn't as important and like, they're, they're good with just like, relying on like, the sounds and the words. And some people like really need that like that, like seeing people's faces or the in person interaction. So definitely made me think about like how the, the classroom has been built to facilitate one kind of learning. And then, and then this has been a totally different experience. And it's, it's worked a lot better for some for some people, maybe than expected. And for others, it's been like, totally dire. But I think there hasn't really been one experience of pandemic learning. I think we'd all like love to be able to give each other a hug in person, though. Emma Jones 16:27 So speaking of the pandemic, because this is why everything is virtual. Right now, magazines are typically sold in public places like newsstands, bookstores, coffee shops, but knowing that these places currently are seeing far people during the pandemic, or close entirely, depending on where they are in the country, did that change the way you're approached production and distribution? Julia Duchesne 16:46 And we definitely knew that we would have to emphasize more, like signing subscribers up and sending the magazine straight to the people who wanted it rather than hoping that they would just encounter it out in the wild. We did reduce our print run slightly. And then, you know, we had like, we had lots of different conversations like about, like we were toying with the idea of like a blank cover, to go with the name pause, because we figured, hey, it doesn't need to be attractive to like somebody on a newsstand. Maybe we could just go sort of like really out there with the cover. And in the end, we went with like a slightly more traditional cover. And I think it was it was the right choice. But yeah, we sort of we knew that we wouldn't be having to like move, like quite as big of a print run. And I think the other side of this is that we really tried to focus on making sure that like all of the features would get up online in a pretty timely way. And Emily can chat more about that. Emiliy Morantz 18:03 Yeah, I obviously, like I said before, like my job was sort of created out of necessity, because of the size of our team. But I actually ended up feeling like, it was really important to have this sort of person in two worlds this year, because of the slightly lower distribution and the fact that new standards aren't a thing right now really. I've really worked pretty hard to make sure that the features all do end up online, because that doesn't happen every year. And also me and the online team are working to make sure that they all look really nice and have the same sort of like visual impact that they might in the magazine to the best of our ability, because that's maybe how a lot of people are going to interact with the magazine this year, much more than usual. And yeah, I think that's just been a really important part of the process this year, specifically. Emma Jones 18:59 A lot of journalists in the past have talked about that disconnect between the print production and the digital production, like digital has been seen as I don't wanna say lesser than, but it hasn't gotten the same amount of attention as historically print. Like, there are a lot of magazine houses who don't even fact check the stuff that they put digitally, even though they have a fact checking process for print. Do you feel that this kind of heals that divide a little bit, now this understanding that print is still valid and important, but we rely on digital so much more now to get that out? Emiliy Morantz 19:31 Yeah, I think like this year, people have had to do so much of their lives online and like obviously, we live in a digital world and we did before the pandemic and we will continue to do so after. But I would like to think that this has taught people a little bit more about how valid digital journalism is and how it can be just as much work and just as high quality as the things they printed in the newspapers and magazines. And I really hope that this year sort of ends up creating a Review, or whatever the magazine is called in the future, that prioritizes digital the same way that it prioritizes print. Because, up until last year, they didn't fact check digital stories for the review. And we really prioritized that this year and it created a lot of extra work. But I'm glad that we continue to do that because some of our digital stories are some of my favorite things across all of the stuff that we've worked on this year. Like, I think we have some really great stuff. Julia Duchesne 20:40 So what we saw is that all of the traditional markers of the year, like all of our assignments, were sort of geared, first of all, to getting the magazine happening, like the print mag, and then online, like, sometimes felt like a bit of an afterthought. And the online team did an amazing job this year of sort of like early on saying like, "why is online and afterthought? So much of the world happens online." And we need to make sure that that not only is the journalism as good on the website, but that like the class is also structured to respect the amount of work that it takes to do a good magazine online. And so that was something that like the online team, just sort of like, took and ran with. And they pointed out that we need to we need to do it better. Emiliy Morantz 21:27 Yeah, I think this has really been a year of transition for the Review in like a number of ways. I think it's going to be a pretty interesting future for this magazine. Emma Jones 21:39 It's gonna be really exciting to see where this goes, and how, five years from now, how the pandemic really shaped how journalism works. And so, to end it off, what are each of you the most proud of in this magazine? Jemma 21:52 I think I'm really proud that, honestly, that we got it together and that, at the end of this year, we are going to have a magazine where everybody's feature is in it, everybody who made a FOBBOB is in it, and that it's really good quality work, like the work in this magazine is insane, so good. So I'm just so proud of getting it together and advocating for everybody's work and making sure that everybody is producing the best quality piece that they can. And I really think we achieved that. Emiliy Morantz 22:30 I agree. Like when we were reading the final proof last week, I got to read a few stories that I hadn't gotten a chance to see in their full form yet. And I was like, I wasn't shocked but amazed by how high quality all of the stories were. And like thinking about all of the chaos we've experienced. And I feel like all of us on this team have been on quite a journey this year with our identities as journalists. And like some of the stories made me emotional with how well written and well reported they were. And I'm just so proud of everyone that, even if there were moments where we were burnt out, or we're struggling or like thought that the magazine wasn't gonna happen, we got it done. Like, that's incredible. That's a huge achievement. Right? Julia Duchesne 23:29 Yeah, our online managing editor Danielle Neri said that, like this magazine, like the print mag would be the only tangible proof that we had this year together and that we did it, you know, we don't have physical memories on the mag lab to look back on, there's a lot of things that we didn't get to have this year, but that we would have this magazine in our hands. And yeah, so I'm really proud that we got to that point like Jemma and Emily said, and I sort of want to return to this. Like everybody is in this magazine. Often, you know, shit happens people, can't get their features ready on time, for one reason or another and, so they end up, not being in the in the in the book, but everybody in this course has their story in the magazine. And I'm really proud of that. Like it's been a really tough year for everyone, for like, a million reasons. And like, I'm proud that we got through this together. Jemma 24:37 Yeah, I think even though we haven't met each other in person, we'll get to meet our magazine in person. And that's, that's exciting. Julia Duchesne 24:47 I don't want to get cheesy but like I think it's also like a bit of a love letter to like what we want journalism to be. We're not breaking the mold of the Review here. It's always like criticizing and critiquing and like trying to hold journalism up to the light and see where the cracks are and see how it can be made better. But I think every new generation of students feels that differently and is, you know, every new year is heading into a rapidly changing journalism world. So yeah, I think it's also like a love letter to what we want journalism to be. Emma Jones 25:19 Amazing. Well, I can't wait to see what this looks like. I'm so excited. I know how much work you guys did in fact checking in digital, and the editorial process everyone has put into this. So it's gonna be really incredible to see that magazine show up on our doorstep. And thank you guys so much for making it happen. 25:36 Thank you, Anna. 25:36 Yeah, 25:37 thank you. Jemma 25:38 Thank you to everybody in this class for making it happen. Julia Duchesne 25:42 It was definitely a team effort. Emma Jones 25:50 So end of a run, how is it Joe Fish 25:52 end of a run? I don't know. It's kind of surreal, isn't it? But ultimately, I'm super proud of what we've been able to do with Pull Quotes with like just the two of us. And I think like, what I'm most proud of is just like, how much better at this we've gotten, like over the course of the semester, I don't like would you agree? Emma Jones 26:11 Absolutely. Like the learning curve that we had from our first podcast all the way to this one. It's pretty amazing. And I liked that we found that flow halfway through. And so it turned into that we could just go like, yes, yes, yes, this has happened that has to happen. We could talk to each other while conducting an interview, like it really started to go. Joe Fish 26:31 I want to also give credit to the people that like schooled us around the way like Nana aba Duncan came in and consulted with us and gave us just like some amazing advice. And you know, Sonia Fatah, the executive producer, and the faculty advisor for the [ ]RJ also gave us just like incredible input. Are there any moments from this year, any of the episodes that you feel like especially proud of or that kind of stick out for you? Emma Jones 27:00 Um, that piece we did you hosted it with the photographer, Ian Willms, I felt was so cool. Because we were trying to figure out how to take a digital or visual medium, and make it work for the audience and getting him to explain what it looked like. And really describe that photo to you, I thought was so beautiful. And also what I thought was interesting, because I had the photo, you didn't have the photo, I was looking at it. And what I was looking at it and he was describing it, I was thinking, Oh my gosh, it's so interesting, like as a journalist, and as someone who normally does like interviews and talking, I would describe as something completely different than the way the photographer was describing it. Like what he saw was so interesting. So I loved that. I really loved that. What about you? What piece like really stuck out stuck out in your mind? Joe Fish 27:53 Um, yeah, I think I really liked your conversation with Tracy Herbaugh. And hearing her talk about her mom, Sharon, who was an Associated Press journalist who died abroad while covering a story in Pakistan or northern Afghanistan and her helicopter crashed. And then hearing Tracy talk about her childhood. I just thought, I don't know, I thought the way you handled it was great. And I thought just sort of the candidness with which she discussed her relationship with her mom, and the way it was all tied back to, you know, sacrifices that that women who go into journalism need to make in terms of family life sometimes. Yeah, no, I just thought that whole episode was super engaging and really great. Emma Jones 28:42 Yeah. Like the amount of respect I have, for Tracy to be able to sit down be like, hey, this was my life. And these are the parts I didn't like these are the parts I did like, and be able to just so completely discuss relationship with her mother, I thought was so incredible, like, they're not a lot of people have that level of emotional maturity to be able to do that, Joe Fish 29:01 you know, I'm so appreciative to all the guests that we had on to come talk to us. But you know, especially people that came on to speak about topics that are maybe difficult to them on an emotional or personal level, you know, like racism, relationships with parents, Ian talking about witnessing the final moments or final hour of someone's life, like, that's not easy. And that's a scary thing to do. So and especially when you're dealing with two graduate students, and you don't really know like, you know, you don't know what you're going to get. So people that agreed to come on and really kind of make themselves vulnerable. That was really kind of special. Emma Jones 29:42 Yeah, right. And it's so true, because I feel like sometimes we get so caught up in like, what's the scoop and what's breaking news and being the first one to get the news story out. But there's also this incredible element that journalists really have to work hard at, which is the fact that we are dealing with people's life stories. People who wouldn't necessarily tell this to friends or family members are entrusting us to get these stories right and to do it justice while also being factually correct and objective, but same time like this is someone's life we're talking about not in like a doctor sense, but, you know, they're their world that we're trying to do justice to. So it, it's really been an incredible journey. Joe Fish 30:27 And I think I think that's important to keep in mind. Because, you know, like, this is this is our business, well, this is how we're trying to make our livelihood anyway. And I think when that's the case, it's so easy to stop seeing the people who you include as sources in your stories as people and just instead see them as sort of like tools for you to use to write the story. Yeah. And I think it's really important as journalists to resist that urge and to continue empathizing with anybody who agrees to talk to you, to know that you're speaking to a human being on the other end, who has their whole own life separate from the story that you're trying to write and never take that for granted. Emma Jones 31:09 Yeah, absolutely. That to us might be a day job. And this might be the 10th story you've done this week, but to that person, this is a big deal. Right? They're entrusting their story with this person they've never met before. Joe Fish 31:21 Yeah, no, absolutely. Were there any, you know, we were talking to, to the print team about remote working. And I was interested to hear to hear your take. Emma Jones 31:30 See, it's interesting, because I am an introvert. So when everyone was like, stay at home, you know, stay at home orders do work from home. To me, I was like, Yes, I like working on my own. But what I realized this year was that, you know, just how, like, it really gave me time to stop and think about just how important communication is. Because when it's when it's there in your face every day, you can take it for granted. But when actually, you have to sit down and sending that email, you have to pick up the phone and call that person to check in on them. It really drove home just how important that is. Right? Whereas before, I think I kind of took it for granted. And now I'm really seeing like, Oh, no, like I really, really appreciate the people who take the time to check in and to talk and to check in with other people to get the whole story. So yeah, so it was a really interesting way. And I think, if we ever go back to completely in person work, which right now feels very far away, but I still have hope. I really think it's gonna change the way I approach working as a journalist for sure. What about you? Joe Fish 32:35 I've been kind of thinking about this a bunch that I think at this point, we've kind of established a rapport with one another. But you know, at the beginning, I was like, oh, should I send this to Emma. Like, how should I phrase this? It's less of a concern now. Because, you know, we're friends. And I think I think we know each other. Oh, I think so friendly Emma Jones 32:56 Oh we're friends?. Joe Fish I think so. Emma Jones Okay, great. Joe Fish 32:59 I like that. Emma Jones 33:03 What I really loved about this was that you and I never had to stop and think like, how are we going to get this person into the recording studio? Joe Fish 33:10 That's a really good, point. Emma Jones 33:12 It was just literally up when can you stop for like a half hour phone call with us? And so we could get anyone all over the country, wherever they are. We're in that really worked for them. And we can make it happen, which I really love. Jow Fish 33:24 yeah. No, that's actually so true. I actually never even thought about that until you just said that, that we were never constrained by geography. And I think that that really broadened the scope of what we felt like we could and we got like a lot of great stories as a result. Emma Jones 33:37 Absolutely. Do you think that in the future you'd want you'd like to see yourself working in like a recording studio and a podcast? Or do you like the small and mobile sort of situation we've got going now, Joe Fish 33:48 I really do like working from home and having the sort of, you know, being outside that sort of like Pan opticon at work, or somebody are always looking over your shoulder to make sure you're not on Facebook kind of stressful thing? Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I necessarily miss an office environment. I've done office work. I don't miss it. But I do miss being in school with everybody. And that sort of like free exchange of ideas and the social element and going to get shwarma for lunch. Emma Jones 34:15 Can't believe it. Can't believe that. We are here and we're done. We're looking at the other side. But it's been a great experience, and I really loved working with you. Joe Fish 34:30 Likewise, Emma, it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for everything. Emma Jones 34:34 Thank you for everything, all of your insane production talents were ridiculous. Like that was so great to work with you on that. Yeah. And hopefully, hopefully we'll see each other again through the podcasting world. Joe Fish 34:47 Yeah, I'll be I'll be working at a pretzel stand at the mall and then Sonia. Sonia is going to run in and Joe we're getting the team. And I'll be like I quit Howard. Emma Jones 34:57 Run off. Joe Fish 34:57 throw my pretzel hat. Emma Jones 35:00 Love it, we'll make it happen. Emma Jones 35:05 This episode of pull quotes was produced by Joe Fish with technical support by Lindsay Hannah. Special thanks to our executive producers Sonya Fatah, and ending music by Paisley Sears. If you're interested in reading any of the stories we've covered during this season of Pull Quotes, plus so much more, be sure to pick up a copy of the magazine available in stores and through online order in May. My name is Emma Jones, thank you all so much for joining us this season. Stay safe this spring, and I hope we can all celebrate the magazine in person in the near future.